Does anyone know of any credible evidence regarding the effect (if any) of fluoride on the microbiome?

I have previously been very comfortable with the available evidence that fluoridated water and toothpaste are safe and effective public health measures.

But with increasing insight into the importance of a healthy microbiome, I’d really like to know whether fluoride impacts gut microbes. I’ve searched and asked widely over the last year or so but have found nothing at all.

As the mum of a 2 year old boy now, I’m torn between the known protective effects of fluoride on oral health and the unknown impact of regular fluoride dosing on his gut bugs.

Surely someone has researched this, given the multiple daily doses of fluoride-treated water in the average western person’s diet.

Does anyone here know if Dr Moseley or any of the experts he consults has commented on this?
Or know of any other credible research?

You obviously have to do what works for you; and yes there IS no such thing as a single miracle cure. The advice in Michael’s book is balanced, sensible and scientifically/clinically accurate

As for the acid in apple cider vinegar? Its unlikely to be of any significance. The stomach is a naturally acid environment (it has a protective effect to kill pathogens amongst other functions. The addition of a tiny amount of extra acid via ACV would be irrelevant in all but the most exceptional cases

Can you explain a bit more about your medical history? Hip replacement (in theory) should allow you free movement. Can you explain about the eyes? I’m unclear what your objectives are? (On the face of it, no, I wouldn’t spend a penny on Bimuno when you can add natural pre and pro-biotics to your diet..

Yep: The Truth about Exercise by (wait for it…) Dr Michael Mosley !

Can any recommend any good resources (websites or books) on HIIT? i.e. that have programs I can follow to do a HIIT workout?

Thank you.

In short, I don’t know the answer to your question. But I would like to know the answer! I am very sensitive to amines (of which histamine is one), so I can’t do the aspect of the Clever Diet that involves eating fermented foods for example. Nor can I eat turkey, the bone broth etc.

I was diagnosed with amine sensitivity via an exclusion diet under the supervision of an accredited dietician.

I have gluten, diary and egg sensitivity confirmed by Food Detective blood test (http://www.food-detective.com.au).
Was tested by my naturopath. Also confirmed those results by another blood test made in accredited diagnostic laboratory.
My symptoms after eating anything containing gluten included: brain fog, problems with concentration, ached and pains, lack of energy, problems with waking up in the morning – extremely hard to wake up in the morning.
After avoiding those 3 foods which I am sensitive to for around 1 year I observed that my reaction to them is not that severe anymore and the level of antibodies in blood against those foods are lower.
I am currently reading “The clever guts diet” and slowly try to implement some recipes and rules from the book for example eating fermented foods every day. I also like the pumpkin breakfast porridge very much 🙂

JillyB: noting your issues with your vision and joints, are you able to be physically active on a frequent basis, even if in very short bursts and at a very easy pace?

By active I mean, for example: brief walks before each meal, or sedate lane swimming (with goggles), or water aerobics for seniors, or seated aerobics for seniors, or tai chi, or gardening, or a few stairs instead of elevator/ lift/ escalator.

JillyB: impressive results from the Blood Sugar Diet! I haven’t read that book, so please excuse any questions with answers obvious to BSD devotees.

Where are you in the Clever Guts Diet phases, have you been completing the detailed food and symptom diary (p.187)?

Are you eating seven servings a day/ 20 to 30 varieties a week of vegetables and fruit – non starchy, low sugar, colourful – (p.191)?

How much mineral and fibre rich wholefoods are you eating in place of starchy carbs in an average day or week? Seeds, nuts, cocoa etc.

Depending how you calculate the 80/20 eating well or badly, it would be worth boosting to 90/10. Prebiotic rich foods are just as vital as probiotic rich ones.

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for more information check out the link given below
http://www.crazyhealthplan.com/home-remedies-for-gastritis/

Dr Mosley said in The Clever Guts Diet that because he doesn’t want to lose any more weight he does 6:1 (i.e only one day of fasting). Perhaps this is an option to consider?

I am sensitive to amines, glutamates and salicylates. The worst is the first two. I get adverse physical and mental symptoms from eating them (extreme fatigue, aches and pains, irritability, depression etc etc(. So I don’t intend to try the fermented foods recommended any time soon. I’m intending to follow the Clever Guts approach in so far as possible with these restrictions.

I was diagnosed by a dietician, following the approach of Friendly Foods from RPAH.

Hi,
I am new to the CG diet, just received the books for Christmas 😁👏🏻 I am just wondering if anyone has converted recipes to be made in the Thermomix? Or if there are any Facebook groups for those on their clever guts journey? TIA 😊

Thank you Graham for your reply,

I have viewed the video but didn’t see anything I don’t already know.
I am 80 years old, lost 15k on The Blood Sugar Diet last year and am a normal weight for my height….9.2 stone, 5’3”. I have had a total hip replacement and can’tdo much excercise, lost my sight in one eye and am fighting to save the other with regular injections in the eye. I feel I eat fairly well 80% of the time, have realised carbs do not like me too much but I try to have “good” carbs in small amounts. Unfortunately, fruit sends me sky high on the blood sugar levels, so I jusy keep them to a minimum. I eat vegetables regually. As I previously said, I eat natural Greek yoghurt and kefir [ I ferment my own ], eat nuts,seeds daily and eat small portions, due to both age and reason.
Really all I want to know is if spending money on buying Bimuno from the UK is worthwhile since I have not seen any improvement after 3 packets ?

jillyB

Hi there, based in Melbourne. Just read book and keen to start. I’ve severe reflux, fructose malabsorption etc. Have lost faith in gastroentrologist. Will not entertain any diet issues other than “lose weight”. Easier said than done. Anyway any ideas of testing facility in Aust and any good holistic docs or gastros!
By the way I take Thompson’s mood managers and lava and have halved my Nexium to 40mg daily. Coping much better so keen to get to bottom of this. Stress and antibiotics I know have caused this. Son with limited food choices has affected my diet. I’ve been too knackered to care with a 60hr a week job (I love). Trying to reduce stress and work hours. Diagnosis of fructose malabsorption limited my diet too. Overall I feel I’m worse off after that diagnosis and now ignore this diet except for main culprits – onion garlic and tomato (the basis of the Mediterranean diet!!). I’m very ill after these. But ….. Time to change! So practitioner recommendations, poop testers etc!! Thank you

I’m also interested in this aspect as I have some fairly major hip pain. I guess it’s a suck it and see. Follow the diet, see if you feel better after two months or so. That’s my plan anyway!

Try googline- there’s actually quite a lot of research on microbiome and pouchitis for example..

Hi Jilly: the answer is “it depends” -there is no “one size fits all ” approach to diet, exercise or pre/pro biotics. Want proof? Take a look at this:

Without any detail of your current diet/lifesyle/healthstatus/objectives its impossible to advise. If you are happy to provide some detail I’m happy to express a view

KR

Graham

I have been interested in probiotics and prebiotics since the start when MM’s book came out. I have always eaten natural greek yoghurt but delved in further, now making my own kefir instead of shop bought. Then I read that MM had given Bimuno a go and sent off to the UK….I’m Australian…..to try it myself. Well, I am on my third box, 3 months worth, and, quite frankly, I don’t feel one scrap better than before I started. What is your opinion ? Is it worthwhile continuing ? Even my yoghurt and kefir doesn’t seem to have changed my health in any way……but I DO like them both.

jillyB

Hi happychick, I was wondering what you had heard about Propionibacterium shermanii.

I have had an ileostomy since 2006. There has been very little scientific research done on people who have no colon; the current wealth of positive information and growing body of knowledge about the biome is great news for people who still have somewhere to house all those millions of microbes in their biome, but not so encouraging for those of us whose biome has nowhere to go. Or does it? People without a colon cannot rely on medical advice about food because doctors and nutrionists do not know what is going on in their bodies. We have to proceed largely by trial and error and find out what works best for us in the hope that more research will be done. I lost my colon in two stages: the whole colon up to the rectum in 2006 and the final rectal stump was removed in 2012. Since then I have survived in reasonably good health despite (apparently) nowhere to house my biome. I feel medical science still has a long way to go to discover how the body manages a situation like this.

Please check with the dieticians and/ or oncologists at the hospital diagnosing and treating you.

Safety may depend on which specific microbes are in a given fermented product, as well as which drug treatment(s) you are prescribed. The effect of treatment on the lining of the mouth and gut may be relevant.

Unpasteurised cheeses and DIY kefir will contain a wide variety of bacteria and yeasts, some of which may act as opportunistic pathogens given the right conditions.

Take a look at 5:2 diet- quite a lot of evidence that fasting has a specific benefit in cancer…

In terms of the Kefir I can’t see any basis to be concerned but can you post the specific wording on the leaflet? Might be worth double checking with the oncology team

http://www.bbc.com/news/health-41848461

I would like to sign up for the potato starch study

I have recently been diagnosed with ovarian cancer and am about to start a course of chemotherapy.

I have just been given a diet sheet concerning the safety of food when the immune system is virtually knocked out by the chemo.

It recommends yoghurt, but then at the end of the sheet says you should not take probiotics or yoghurts such as Yakult or Actimel. I have never eaten either of the latter, and normally eat organic live yoghurt or kefir.

Does anyone know if it could be be dangerous to eat kefir while undergoing chemotherapy? I would far rather continue taking it.

Sarah Small: just seen in your profile that you are interested in the link between diet and mental health. Particularly consider your intake of long chain omega-3s, magnesium, zinc, vitamin D3 and the B group vitamins.

There are plant foods that are truly rich in magnesium (cocoa/ low sugar dark chocolate/ certain seeds) but there are not for zinc, vitamin D3 or the O-3s.

Sarah Small: you may find the threads ‘Iron Deficiency Anaemia’ and ‘Quorn Products’ (Newbies forum) useful.

In general your detailed food diary – with servings weighed and measured – will be invaluable in ensuring you eat the widest possible variety of wholefoods and proper balance of nutrients.

Ideally you would have your food diary and supplement regime assessed by a registered dietician. As a vegetarian hopefully you are already addressing some nutrient gaps, such as long chain omega-3s, haem iron, vitamin D.

I am vegetarian , planning to go vegan. Have been trying to follow clever guts advice ( guts now much better) but concerned by lack of meat and dairy free recipes etc – any thoughts/ experiences …?

More from the good people at quorn products just now

“Dear Bill,

Thank you again for contacting us.

Regarding your latest enquiry, how Quorn influences the microbiome in the guts, please see following information:

Researchers of the Universities Glasgow and Wageningen in the Netherlands have shown that Mycoprotein, the basic ingredient in Quorn products, is fermented by the bacteria in the human gut to produce a range of short chain fatty acids including propionate. This may be important as a causal mechanism for many of the physiological benefits reported for diets rich in Mycoprotein such as satiety and insulin response.

Short chain fatty acids are also known to positively impact the microbiome. We are therefore extending this research area and have set up collaborative projects at different Universities to investigate this further. This will complement the work underway at the University of Exeter which is already showing that our protein is as good as animal proteins.

We hope this helps!

Kind regards,

Customer Support”

So ive just spent the morning looking into this . Ive checked stores in my area, louth ireland. Tescos , dunnes stores, aldi, centra, holland and barrett . I ve also been doing some online research and what i have come up with is that Australia and chile produce the best and safesest EVOO with california coming in a cool third.
Of all the stores ive checked, tescos seem to have the poorest evoo , if you go by origin colour and what it says on the label.. eg ‘cold pressed’ , apparently olive oil needs to be put through high heat to be pressed so cold pressed is null and void.
Aldi came up as the best of what i can find, with my limited knowledge, holland and barrett dont do evoo or any cooking oil really in the two stores i checked and centra do stock brands , none of which id trust.. nothing against any of the stores, just my humble opinion.
None stock austrailian or chilian evoo , id imagine its expensive to import so im going to stay clear and stick with coconut oil till there is a more obvious, safer easier accessible and a more definitive result on the whole evoo debacle .

Hi,
I have planter fasciitis and my heel pain has decreased considerably since I have been wearing Orthofeet. It’s great to find a shoe at a reasonable cost that seems to be just what I needed.

And here is a link to the great olive oil fraud …
Included is a list of those that failed a particular test and some that passed
http://www.realfoodforlife.com/which-olive-oil-to-buy-the-olive-oil-fraud/

Ok i just did a google search and found this…
http://www.realfoodforlife.com/the-complete-list-of-authentic-extra-virgein-olive-oils-and-how-to-buy/

I would much prefer to be able to walk into my local shop / healthfood store and buy it, so im going to see if any of these have made it to the shop shelf… anybody else have any good recommendations, id appreciate a heads up. What we cook our foods in is paramount to the gut so this thread really should be hopping with recommendations
Cheers
Bill

Why two such different recipes/ methods? What is the recipe author’s background?

Which specific vegetables? Do you know how each were grown (eg. organic, hydroponic, outdoor field) and prepared for sale (scrubbed clean, rinsed in dilute chlorine, plastic packed)?

Other variables include how you sterilised the jars and equipment, how well you measured the ingredients (scales/ level measuring spoons), storage conditions during fermentation (may favour certain microbes).

Are you saying you have avoided drinking your tap water, scalp contact with your tap water or both simultaneously?

If your drinking water is contaminated that may affect health. Contamination is more likely if you have well water, old lead pipework, leaking pipework, do not run the tap sufficiently before filling your glass, or drink stored water from a tank rather than from the mains.

But normal levels of chlorine or suchlike should be well diluted by food before they reach the colon.

Contact your water company if you have concerns about the quality of the water supply to your property.

PLEASE do not randomly put fermented food into the nostrils/ sinuses/ eyes/ ears etc.

Most components of kimchi juice have no business there, and have the potential to cause or worsen irritation, inflammation or infection.

By all means *read the full text* of any studies on L. sakei, and discuss with your ENT (ear-nose-throat) specialist with a view to replicating the results.

Thanks. I checked out lactobacto.com and they seem to have had huge success just by putting kimchi juice up their noses. (But of course, don’t go and do that without reading all their information!)

The Healthaid pro-biotic range are well formulated:https://www.healthaid.co.uk/Probiotics/kidzprobio-5-billion-powder . Might well be worth having his stool analysed tho as a first step

Sorry,.. my point being that without some detailed analysis of your microbiota, you are steering blind in making dietary and lifestyle changes. On the other hand, if you send off a sample and get back a load of scientific gobbledegook that you can’t interpret then you are poorer (its expensive) but no further ahead. So I’m in the process of sourcing another provider who gives meaningful interpretations that one can act on..

I had an association with Prof Tim Spector (The Diet Myth – highly recommended) but they’ve pulled the map my gut service

No, I don’t work for anyone (except myself)

The skin microbiome undoubtedly plays a role in inflammatory skin conditions such as psoriasis and eczema. 5:2 diet is profoundly anti-inflammatory and worth investigating also take a look at the BBC Trust Me I’m a Doctor website and specifically Gladskin

Hi,
Having had psoriasis of the scalp for around 40 years I have been trying dietary changes and logging it for the last two and half years. The only thing that seems to have made a real difference is avoiding tap water and only drinking natural mineral water.
Having now read the Clever Guts Diet, I wondered if the chlorine and possible other chemicals in tap water damage the gut biome. From the last month of avoiding tap water my skin has almost completely healed. It took about 3 weeks of following this regime for the improvement to come, but I can’t think of anything else I have done that could account for this eureka moment.
I was interested in others experiences on this or if it might help anyone.

Thank you for the advice Graham. What exactly are you working on please?

Hi Graham – thanks for the update and I live in Pulborough, West Sussex by the way – I am intrigued as to why you were interested?!
Do you work for Atlas then? Many thanks

I concur entirely with Firefox’s posts above. Also there is no reason to assume antibiotics will necessarily irreversibly damage the microbiome. It depends on all sorts of factors: lifestyle; diet; genetic; which antibiotic; how long the course ..and probably much more I’ve missed. To properly answer your questions you need to provide details

Diet; lifestyle; exercise; medical history; symptoms etc. Then I might be able to give you a few tips…

I wouldn’t rush to Altlas either YET. Again it will provide an awful lot of detail that is hard to digest and interpret. I’m working on something but its early days..

Hi MeredithAnne if you are happy posting a fair amount of detail on your health status, diet, exercise status and any ongoing prescribed meds I might be able to make a few suggestions. Almost always in these cases the devil is in the detail..

Yep we make our own Kombucha its great fun and easy to do. Take a look at Fermenting Friends facebook group. I also highly recommend The Fermentarium if you are London based

What makes you think you have it and what are your symptoms? What have you tried already and did anything help??