Mandy you have my sympathy. your symptoms sound like an allergy rather than just a sensitivity – you may be able to get medical help? I just get a nasty skin condition from foods high in salicylates and severe indigestion from amines in some meat. Chicken from the butcher is ok. All the new experiments and research are fascinating and they mainly seem to emphasis the need for more probiotics for gut health. Apple cider vinegar and kimchi gave me side effects, so now I eat a lot of plain Greek yoghurt for breakfast with some pear and a plain cereal or porridge. I am reducing the amount of sugar and processed foods such as biscuits, and trying to eat all the vegetables that I am allowed. I also take an antibiotic with L ramnosus. This seems to be helping and I have been able to eat a little more widely and even drink coffee. However it is a long slow process and I still can’t eat much from foods very high in salicylates.
Best wishes.

I am infact amine intolerant and tried some kombucha as it is fermented and supposed to be good for the gut but I got bad symptoms of amine intolerance so I am going to give up on that and not try any more fermented food. I think I will stay on the elimination diet for the most part of a year and maybe tried so medium strength amine foods once my body settles down.

Hi!
I am not sure the gas/bloating is a posture thing. It’s possible certain foods and drinks make it worse, or calm things down i.e. I think I’ve noticed wine will reduce it, I think I need to do some specific testing – remove certain food and drink types for different meals and/or for a number of days.
The steroids I was prescribed during my childhood was for severe asthma – i.e. inhalers and nebulisers, and also steroid creams such as betnovate for chronic eczema. Pretty much ever since that I have been susceptible to chronic persistent fungal infections such as athletes foot, ringworm, tinea manis, tinea capitis, and genital candidiasis which is cured by anti-fungals. I haven’t had any confirmation of candida within the GI and GU tracts but I highly suspect it due to the recurring candidiasis & the extreme bloating problems.
I have also had long term depression/bipolar/anxiety which it now seems may be connected to my gut issues

Bercik, P. et al. The intestinal microbiota affect central levels of brain-derived neurotropic factor and behavior in mice. Gastroenterology 141, 599–609 (2011).

http://www.gastrojournal.org/article/S0016-5085(11)00607-X/fulltext

Bercik, P. et al. Chronic gastrointestinal inflammation induces anxiety-like behavior and alters central nervous system biochemistry in mice. Gastroenterology 139, 2102–2112 (2010).

http://www.gastrojournal.org/article/S0016-5085(10)01006-1/fulltext

I have problems with amines and I recently tried drinking alot of kombucha as it is a fermented drink and I got bad food intolerance symptoms. I might try a variety of fermented foods like the lady above, but I also might try staying off amines for a year first.

I wonder if part of the issue with gas is mechanical: HOW you eat or drink and how yor body processes that, including (but not limited to) size of mouthful, efficiency of chewing, gulping or sipping drinks, posture during and after eating and drinking, dysfunction of nerves or muscles involved in digestion and excretion. Signals or activity can get muddled or altered after injury, surgery, difficult pregnancy or birth …

I am unclear which route(s) corticosteroids have been administered: oral tablets and/ or inhaled and/ or topical creams? Similarly I am unclear which site(s) are affected by yeast/ fungal infections. Skin, vagina, urinary tract, mouth? WHO suspects an overgrowth of Candida??

Be aware that many aspects of diet, lifestyle, genetics, environment and self care interact in the health of our skin barrier.

In skin health consider weather/ season/ ambient temp and humidity, frequency temperature and duration of showers, sweating, residues of ALL personal care/ household and laundry products …. Even if apparently well rinsed.

Also be aware that a history of eczema/ dermatitis in one area means that ALL our skin is atopic, or genetically weakened or ‘at risk’. Aldo that reactions or symptoms are often cumulative, the ‘straw that broke the camels back’ not one or even two true causes.

HTH!

Gussmithy, I had considered doing a test with two companies for this very reason, if they are giving completely different results from the same sample it does seem to bring into question how on earth that would be possible – either their analytical methods are so utterly different, or they are lax in mixing up or contaminating samples of testing equipment.

Hi! Posted another message in welcome, but no reply yet. Since part of it concerns biome testing, thought I’d pose my question here- which is, do the two main UK options, British Gut, and Atlas DNA sequence candida yeast strains as well as bacterial strains in the gut?

Here in the UK the recommended serving of meat or fish is the size and thickness of your palm (adult ~100g-150g). And up to four such servings of fish each week.

Oily fish is the primary dietary source of the usable forms of vitamin D and omega-3s. Here in the UK we cannot manufacture vitamin D3 using sunlight for around half the year, so many of us have low levels. Smoked mackerel, farmed salmon, canned sardines … all oily fish are healthy IMO.

You can check the average vitamin D and omega-3 content of different oily fish on sites like Self Nutrition Data. If you are not in the UK please follow your country’s guidelines on serving size and frequency of different wholefoods.

HTH!

I have issues with salicylates and completed the elimination diet about 20 years ago. My symptoms range from mild to severe including difficulty swallowing and facial swelling and respiratory wheeze when severe to foods containing high levels of salicylates. I have recently been experimenting with fermented foods including kefir, sauerkraut and sourdough bread. I am a bit nervous about trying a lot of the recipes as they contain a lot of things that are high in salicylates, any advice?

Thank you Firefox7275. I occaisionally eat traditionally dyed smoked haddock, so that would seem OK. But smoked mackerel I probably eat twice a week about 80 – 100 grams, you don’t say how much a large or small portion would be, and are you talking about smoked or fresh mackerel ? Smoked seems easier to come by, but I suppose that fresh would be much healthier !

Some of your questions are addressed in the thread entitled ‘Oily Fish’ in the Mediterranean Diet forum.

Ideally we would eat a really wide variety of fish and other seafood, focussing on the most nutrient dense ones (oily fish for vitamin D + long chain omega-3s/ molluscs for zinc + other minerals).

Haddock is a white fish so low in micronutrients (vitamins/ minerals/ essential fatty acids). Often a yellow dye and/ or smoke flavour are used to simulate the full traditional smoking process. Overall smoked haddock is neither healthy nor unhealthy, but fine to eat occasionally as part of a balanced and varied wholefood diet.

Salt content depends on the serving size. You don’t need a large serving of the very oily fish (mackerel, herring, sardines/ pilchards) to get a worthwhile ‘dose’ of vitamin D and omega-3s so I often combine with a boiled organic egg. This supplies some of the same nutrients, without the meal becoming overly salty.

HTH!

Hi!!
Have just found this site but have followed Michael on Trust Me I’m a Doctor and seen various articles he has authored. I have been suffering long term problems with extreme gas (both ways!), usually after eating or drinking, it can even be just tap water that will trigger it, but also when urinating (or trying to) which seems to have baffled my GP & urologist now I have been referred for chronic bladder retention.
I have had long term fungal infections, ringworm/tinea, thrush and strongly suspected candidiasis in GI and GU tracts (leading to gas and thrush) which I put down to excessive prolonged steroid prescription as a child for asthma & ezcema.
I have had a look at the biome testing options for the UK, British Gut and Atlas DNA, but both seem to only mention sequencing of bacterial DNA, not candida yeasts? Does anyone know whether they do actually sequence for this too?
Looking around the web I’ve seen interesting suggestions that D,L-2-hydroxyisocaproic acid (HICA) which is produced by some Lactobacillus species can inhibit the biofilm on which Candida grows, but I’m not clear whether you can get this on prescription or whether you have to seek out from sports supplements sellers online? Also not clear whether taking various Lactobacillus probiotics as supplements would allow creation of this acid in the body (also do the pills endure the stomach acid to pass into the gut etc.)?

http://europepmc.org/articles/PMC4035295

Thank you Firefox7275 for your speedy response. Your comments around allergic reactions lasting much longer than food intolerances is an interesting one and I think there’s definitely some benefit in reviewing my sons long list of ‘excluded’ foods with fresh eyes. First I need to get his symptoms back to a ‘reasonable’ level following the recent trial of Bio Kults (I’m convinced he’s still being impacted by them).

I am still keen to understand what foods I should be introducing/increasing /reducing/excluding to help him build the right level of good bacteria in his body. I’ll be re-reading the clever guts diet book again and looking to build a plan based on my sons symptoms (hopefully with some help from a dietician who has a passion for gut bacteria and children with tummy problems…..just need to find that person first!)

Hello, I am no expert having just started myself, but I got some from a friend which had an after taste like vomit, so I threw that away and tried the powdered form you can buy on Amazon. This was OK, much more palatable, but people said it wasn’t as good as real grains. So I got some a few weeks ago from someone locally, as a friend had been on her sourdough course and the person in question supplies kefir grains for milk and water. These are very palatable, (so far!) I make smoothies with the milk kefir I make from these grains, i.e. put blueberries, strawberries, pineapple and banana in my NutriBullet and put the fermented milk in. Her details are wildbaker.co.uk and you can order them from her online.

Hope this helps! I don’t know anything about IBS etc though, sorry!

Flotty

Hi all,

I am new to the forum and have gained so much reading through your posts.
I also suffer from IBS with constipation and was on long term laxatives until I discovered the Low FODMAP diet and Psyllium Husk. It has changed my life. I have two tbsp in a smoothie each morning and I now, after 28 years of constipation, go to the toilet naturally every day. Hooray!!!
I am considering taking making Kefir myself to improve my gut flora but fear the constipation. I tried a shop bought version in very small amounts and my bowels stopped moving. Should I persevere?

Hi guys,

I’m also interested in making my own Kefir after seeing the show and reading lots about it online. I bought some from my supermarket recently to try it and I found myself very badly constipated. I follow a low FODMAP diet for irritable bowel syndrome and I thought Kefir would be fine as the fermentation process converts the lactose to acid. I started small, with maybe only consuming 1-2 tbsp a day.
Just wondering if you experienced the same? Should I persevere?

I am trying to find out if smoked fish is a healthy choice, mainly mackerel and haddock (not salmon, I don’t eat this because it is farmed !) I know smoked fish is higher in salt, but i never put salt on it as i would do if it wasn’t smoked. But what about the smoking process, does this distroy all or any of the goodness and or does it add anything harmful ?

Hi there,
The lady in the book that was cured of psoriasis- did she take 2g or 4g of the seaweed capsules?
Thanks,
Tracey

I may have more questions than answers, but will try to help …

Did your Gastroenterologist or other medical professional warn of weight gain? Are you meaning a significant overall gain, or a weight loss followed by regain?

Why are you weighing yourself daily? Health professionals usually advise against this. Short term changes tend to be fluctuations based on some combination of minerals/ electrolytes, muscle glycogen (carb energy source) water/ hydration and contents of the colon (food waste plus gut microbes, depending upon prebiotic content).

Are you tracking the balance and variety of your diet with a detailed food and symptom diary (p. 266), and/ or the support of a registered dietician? You mention no,mineral and fibre rich substitute for wholegrains and pulses (esp. seeds). Greens are not more beneficial than blue/ purple, red, yellow/ orange produce. Which proteins?

I had a colonoscopy a little over a week ago. I realise that I would expect some weight gain after the bowel prep and colonoscopy BUT ever since – almost daily – I have had a weight increase. I know it is still early days but losing isn’t easy for me and I’m a little horrified by seeing this increase. Could it be due to the changes in my microbiome following the bowel prep?
I follow a low carb, healthy fat regime and this hasn’t changed since the colonoscopy. Daily I consume homemade water kefir, quality yoghurt quite often, lots of veggies- mostly green, protein and dairy.
Does anyone have any information about this topic?

I bet you are at your wit’s end! Sounds like you have been doing all the right things, including seeking professional advice.

A few things jumped out at me from your post, firstly that your son may be intolerant to a long list of foods. This made me wonder if there is an undiagnosed allergy (food or environmental) OR that there is an undiagnosed nutrient insufficiency (easy if diet is not balanced or varied). Would be worth reviewing the eight months of food and symptom diaries with fresh eyes, ‘forgetting’ previous conclusions.

Note that symptoms of food allergies may be present for MUCH longer after exposure than with intolerances, and that trigger amounts can be tiny. The ingredients of and allergen warnings on the probiotic supplement, and ANY other diagnosed medical condition (eczema/ dermatitis, asthma, anything inflammatory) may provide clues here.

Which prebiotic wholefoods to add really depends on what your son’s diet is like at present (compare balance, variety, size of servings, average intake fibre and healthy fats, daily physical activity etc. to official guidelines for age group).

HTH!

Hi, this is my first post on here having recently started reading the Clever Guts diet book (as recommend by another mum with a sufferer). I have a 2year old boy who has all the symptoms of IBS with constipation. He was born via C-section, had antibiotics at birth and again at 8mths. We are under an NHS dietician and gastroenterologist trying to help us understand what is problem is and how to resolve/manage the symptoms. I’ve recently tried Bio Kults infantis, following his dieticians advice. After 14 days (with a 2 day break on day 10) I’ve stopped giving them to him. His symptoms worsened significantly (trying to pooh 10-15 times a day, crying, unsettled, waking 5-10times at night in discomfort, loss of appetite). I’ve read that symptoms can get worse before they get better, as the bad bacteria is ‘flushed’ out of the body, but is symptoms seemed far to severe to continue.

My question is whether there is a more suitable Probiotic he could take, that is more gentle on his tummy and/or whether I should be looking a certain foods to help improve his gut bacteria (he is intolerant to a long list of foods, many of the usual culprits plus afew others. I identified these after doing a food diary for 8months).

All advice appreciated.

I found some in local Morrisons supermarket today which is pure and has “mother” in it i.e. live bacteira probiotic alongside it coconut butter and coconut condensed to make your own coconut milk

Hubby doesn’t like any kind of chocolate so he is sticking to the suggested meals but increasing portion sizes.

Excellent advice, many thanks.

The best cider vinegars I have found are the ones made purely from cider apple juice and not the juice of dessert or culinary fruit. Cider apples are richer in tannins and antioxidants than other varieties. Obviously, the vinegar needs to be unpasteurised and unfiltered but it should also be slow fermented and not made in an industrial machine like the big manufactures that have been mentioned. The best product I have found is from http://www.somersetcidervinegarco.co.uk

Annasmith is a new member of the forum cleverguts, very pleased to be acquainted and make friends to share everything in life with people. Especially learned from the forum.

Hi everyone, I filmed a video explaining why raw garlic might have negative effects on the human body. Check it out 🙂

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4L7aYLEKOBY&t=16s

In ‘The Fast Diet’ Dr Mosley points out that “Logging consumption seems to heighten awareness; the simple act of quantifying incoming food (and, don’t forget, drink) seems to strengthen your hand.” (p.121)

This holds true for lifestyle habits too (physical activity/ sleep/ relaxation/ eating slowly and mindfully/ smoking/ alcohol).

Whether or not maintaining your diary alters your diet choices and daily habits, log that. Take photographs of packaging, scribble cryptic notes, copy and paste from grocery store or manufacturers websites, start a blog or diary thread on these forums …

Q. How do I deal with the odd looks and funny comments from my relatives/ coworkers/ teammates when measuring and logging?

A. Blame your doctor/ dietician/ life partner/ kids school project/ a drunken bet/ personal trainer/ sports coach/ spiritual guru … whatever gets you through.

*Please chime in with your shortcuts and solutions!*

Q. How detailed should the diary be?

A. Include as much information about your diet, lifestyle and health as possible/ practical. Sometimes patterns can only be seen after a few weeks or by a fresh pair of eyes (health professional, trusted friend or relative, future you).

The official ‘Clever Guts’ daily diary (p.266-267 or download from this site) includes the *quantity* of each food or drink, the *time* of each meal, snack and symptom, linked *lifestyle and health* factors.

Carry your diary – paper and pen or electronic log – everywhere, and note every nibble, bite, sip and snack *as you go*. Research suggests we underestimate, overestimate or forget if logging at a later time or date.

Ideally record the weight or volume of each food and drink item: this may mean carrying a small kitchen scale, measuring spoons and/ or measuring cups!

Dr Mosley recommends to “keep a detailed daily diary for at least a week before you start, to help identify any pattern in relation to diet and other factors…” (p.187)

“Ideally keep the diary going throughout the programme … A diary will help you be systematic and focussed in your approach. If you see a professional, you will also have useful information available.” (p.188)

I hope this thread will encourage and support diary keeping and analysis. Please post your hints, tips, ideas, successes, failures, short cuts, general questions related to the food and symptom diary here! Pretty please?!

How are you getting on, scunner?

Clever Guts is intended to be flexible and personalised. The guidelines (p.186-196) and analysis of your detailed food and symptom diary are more important than the recipes and sample planners.

As well as rereading the guidelines section of the CG book, you may find my responses to the threads entitled ‘Constant bubbly activity in my gut’ and ‘Peanuts during the repair process’ (both in the Newbies forum) useful.

Certainly a properly balanced and very varied wholefood diet is bulkier and more filling than the standard processed, imbalanced US/ UK diet. We often need to allow more time for preparing and consuming meals. Every part of the digestive system – mouth, stomach, intestines – will slowly acclimatise to a more natural diet if we are patient and methodical.

I wonder if you are underestimating the calories in some of the recipes? The breads, crackers and granola all contain energy-dense mixed nuts/ seeds (<350 cals per 50g) and oils (~120cals per 15ml spoon).

The salads are not simply water-rich leaves and veggies, but include flexible amounts of complete proteins, healthy fats and complex carbohydrates.

HTH!

Hello

I would like to try this diet but am a bit concerned about energy levels. I am quite tall man and my average daily calory intake should be around 2700 kcal. Anything bellow for two days and I am without energy.

My weight is very good 82kg, if I go on any low calorie adventure for longer time I start losing weight.

I have looked at the meal plan and e.g. on Monday repair stage there is not more than 1000 kcal it is way bellow the norm and there is no way I could eat 3 times that. Other days it does not reach 1500 kcal. So how am I suppose to act here? Clearly for me it is not sensible to have such a low kcal intake.

Some help and advise would be very welcome.

P.s. I have IBS diagnosis.

Forgot one of my favourite nutrient dense foods: 85% cocoa low sugar dark chocolate. Cocoa (p.114) is rich in minerals, prebiotic antioxidants and fibre. Gut friendly and fitness friendly!

The meal planners are examples only. Which specific wholefoods are included or excluded in any phase or cycle depends on the individual’s detailed food and symptom diary (p.187). This means your Clever Guts journey may be quite different to your husband’s journey.

Peanuts are not true nuts but rather legumes/ pulses (p.191) which some guts handle better than others. Alternatives with a better fatty acid, mineral and/ or prebiotic fibre composition include hazelnuts, macadamia nuts, chia seeds, pumpkin seeds, ground linseeds.

Note that during R&R snacking is discouraged (p.262) in order to ‘rest’ the gut. If more calories/energy is required ideally maintain the balance and variety of food groups/ types to maintain the balance of nutrients. Your husband might increase serving sizes at mealtimes, or have four properly balanced and very varied meals each day with a gap between each.

Is your husband training seven days a week, without regular rest days and gentle active recovery days? There is a fine line between boosting sports performance and overreaching, and between overreaching and overtraining syndrome. Stressing the body with an intense exercise regime may be counterproductive or incompatible with a strict R&R phase. Some will need the carbohydrates in gluten-free wholegrains and/ or to eat more lower sugar antioxidant rich fruits (eg. berries).

HTH!

My husband and I are following the meal planner for week #1.
Hubby is quite active, swim training every morning and having low energy levels. Is it ok to snack on e.g. raw peanuts for extra energy? Peanuts don’t get much of a mention in the book except a mention as a flavonoids and don’t pop up in recipie ingredients.
Thanks for any advice or suggestions!
Jane.

Lakeland sell fermenting jars. They are really good and have an inbuilt pressure relief valve so no worries on that score. Only downside is that they are a bit expensive.

As with many message boards, this is for mutual support from other readers. AFAIK Dr Mosley does not read or reply here.

When the experts appear to disagree, it is helpful to consider their background or angle on the subject, the *precise wording* of any claims made, the target audience or population, the published evidence offered, the opinion of other experts in that specific field.

Clever Guts, for example, is focussed on health not weight loss (as many commercial diet books are), particularly those with gut symptoms or diagnosed gut conditions. Both Dr Mosley and Dr Bailey trained and worked in the non-profit UK National Health Service as General Practitioners, with a broad cross section of the general public. Likely very different diet/ lifestyle/ weight/ medical history than Dr Gundry’s cardiac patients.

Dr Mosley and Dr Bailey’s books and TV programmes steer clear of scaremongering and dramatic claims (no wholefood plagues or holes ripped in the gut). They advocate a really wide variety of different wholefoods, including sensible serving sizes and frequencies, and to include or exclude foods based on the individual’s detailed food and symptom diary (p.187).

If even modest servings of any beans or lentils are problematic *for you* do not eat them. If you are considering eliminating entire food groups or multiple food groups/ types long term, your diet is likely not to be properly balanced and varied. Please consult an appropriate health professional (registered dietician, doctor) who has access to your medical history and your food diary.

HTH!

I would like to know Mosley’s view of lectins in foods. PLEASE ANSWER, DR MOSLEY!……

On the one hand Clever Guts advocates the use of legumes (chickpeas, lentils, beans etc) and bioflavanoids (found in colourful veg like peppers and squash etc) and cashews and various seeds and yet Dr Steven Gundry – renowned heart surgeon and author of The Plant Paradox – says we should avoid these foods like the plague because they basically rip holes in our gut and wreak havoc with our system.

Both Mosley and Gundry are reputable Doctors and both of them agree on the standard practice of eliminating sugar and processed foods and bread etc (who doesn’t already know this?!), but which Doctor should we believe about lectins, or in fact believe about anything (we all remember Dr Atkins!)? Are the nightshades, pulses, seeds etc friend or foe?

Mosley says “Trust me I am a Doctor” but Gundry is a Doctor too, as was Atkins. So with such vast conflicting information, who should we actually trust?

Dollygrip: My understanding is that contamination varies by species/ subspecies, size of fish and where the fish is caught. Similarly the amount of vitamin D and long chain omega-3s vary substantially, for example between farmed and wild salmon.

UK healthy eating guidelines (National Health Service, Food Standards Agency) are based on the best available evidence and recommendations of other key agencies, such as the World Health Organisation or European Food Safety Authority. Where I can’t access – or don’t understand! – the published research I default to these experts. Currently they recommend limiting intake of the largest fish species. More information is on the websites of relevant agencies.

Your post made me think that it would be interesting to compare the weight of fish consumed in an ‘average’ serving of sushi, fresh tuna steak or canned tuna lunch.

Eating sushi frequently would go against several of the UK’s healthy eating guidelines: eating a wide variety of different foods, choosing wholegrains over refined ones, limiting intake of large fish.

The thing about olive oil is the harvest and bottling date. Olive oil is perishable so check you buy it as fresh as possible. I checked along a row of expensive oils at a high-end supermarket and chose the freshest. I like estate bottled Castillo De Canena extra virigin olive oil, in arbequina and picual varieties, and the grassy, Marqués de Valdueza extra virgin which is a blend.

While it’s true that the larger oily fish like tuna are apex predators and therefore have eaten lots of other fish in their lives, do we have any reliable figures for mercury and other contaminants ? I hear mercury builds up in the system like lead compounds so it’s a safe bet you want to limit your sushi intake. Fresh sardines are sold in good supermarkets like Waitrose in the UK and they eat only plankton so the risk is reduced.

Attempts to improve my dietary fibre also turned my system into a gasworks and I too had to manage my intake of brassicas (which I love) and pulses. I’ve enjoyed adding wakame seeweed to my morning miso soup and tofu doesn’t seem to stir up trouble. Eggs and chicken produce evil gas and I’m thinking my gut bacteria must include lots that mess around with sulphur. Does anybody know when Day Two are setting up a lab here in the UK ?

I agree that the breakfast bread is very dense. I found I could only eat a tiny amount and it took a long while to chew. All these are good things! I added caraway seeds to my batch but I’m planning to make a hybrid with gluten-free flour and yeast to see what that’s like. I want a high protein bread for my partner who is diabetic but little and seldom s the motto informing our choices.

Thanks supermum. I have started drinking an a tbspn of apple cider vinegar mixed with water before each meal. I have also cut back on brassica veg. Things have calmed down a bit. Didn’t know about the bicarb test. I just looked it up. I’ll try it out over the next 3 mornings. Many thanks again

Thank-you.

URL links don’t work well here on CG, but reputable online articles confirming the above include the UK National Health Service “Can reheating rice cause food poisoning?” and BBC News “Dr Mosley: When is it safe to reheat leftovers?”

It is safe to reheat cooked rice, or eat it cold, providing it has been refrigerated or frozen *promptly after cooking*. Cooked rice should not be kept warm or left at room temperature for too long.

This is because rice may harbour a bacteria that can survive cooking (‘spore former’). Given food, water, warmth and time the bacteria multiplies and produces toxins *which are not destroyed by cooking/ reheating/ freezing.*

Basically avoid rice at a summer BBQ or curry house buffet unless you know it has not been out long. And only use rice in your phyto burst lunchbox or bento if you have a refrigerator at work.

HTH.