Hello

I am new.

What does this community make of the work of Dr. Michael Greger M.D. (https://nutritionfacts.org)?

In particular, Dr Greger seems to think that eating a _plant-only_ – i.e. vegan – diet is vastly more healthy than eating a carnivorous diet. According to Greger the only complication is that everyone must of course eat vitamin B12 supplements.

Personally, I seem to be sensitive (arguably allergic) to various food, and I am already on a FODMAPs diet. The trouble is that I don’t seem to digest peas & beans (legumes) very well.

J

Humans have not evolved to be either herbivorous or carnivorous, we are omnivores. There are anatomical and physiological differences in digestion between a cow, a lion and a human.

Considering the ‘Out of Africa’ theory maps, many of us have ancestors that were coast-hugging pescatarians. And those with European ancestry are likely to be able to include dairy (genetic adaptation for lactose tolerance in adulthood).

Populations that traditionally have a largely vegan or vegetarian diet often eat insects, both accidentally and deliberately (eg. larvae in honeycomb, ants, spiders, locusts).

Our closest living relatives are omnivorous. Chimpanzees eat insects, raw eggs, and hunt smaller primates for meat.

Vegans should supplement more than just vitamin B12. They can also have issues absorbing or utilising non haem iron or plant calcium, getting enough vitamin D outside of summer, balancing intake of omega-3 to omega-6, converting short chain omega-3s to the useable long chain format.

Most registered dieticians/ nutritionists/ doctors agree that the standard western diet includes too much land animal muscle meat, too little plant wholefoods, is poorly balanced and poorly varied.

If we ate the richest sources of the nutrients primarily or only found in animal products, we would be much better nourished on much smaller servings. That would leave plenty of space on our plates and in our stomachs for a wide variety of nutrient dense plants.

Compare key micronutrients (haem iron, vits B12 and D, omega-3s) in the same size serving of chicken breast to organ meats and very oily fish using Self Nutrition Data website. Never checked if insects are listed there, let us know if they are!

HTH.

> Humans have not evolved to be either herbivorous or carnivorous, we are omnivores.
No offence, but I am not interested in the theory – theories can be created in both directions and debated forever! – what I am interested in is what does the latest evidence-based science actually say?

According to Dr Michael Greger – who incidentally has about the same number of followers on Twitter and Dr Michael Mosley – the whole food plant based diet (with meat only eaten on special occasions??) is VASTLY more healthy than a normal Western Diet. The evidence seems to suggest that this diet will eradicate atherosclerosis from a population _completely_.
https://nutritionfacts.org/video/how-not-to-die-from-high-blood-pressure/

The story of how Gr Greger got interested in also interesting.
https://nutritionfacts.org/video/the-story-of-nutritionfacts-org/

Either way, what does Michael Mosley say that the science says about eating animal products?

Theories are rife throughout science; everything can be debated based on what is considered quality evidence and how that is interpreted. Many theories are backed by a solid body of research and accepted by the majority in a given field. They remain fluid because there will always be new evidence.

The standard Western diet =/= a carnivorous diet, similarly the standard Western vegan diet =/= a herbivorous or whole plant diet. Consumption of highly processed, nutrient poor foods is rife in the West, including many vegetarians and vegans. The ingredients and nutrition profile of many ready-made meat substitutes and dairy alternatives are as bad as the animal versions.

‘Animal products’ is a huge category, everything from longlife processed cheese and formed meaty snacks to oily fish fillets, traditional ewes milk cheeses and free range organic eggs. There is positive and negative research for animal products, depending on the food type, quantity consumed, population group studied and other variables. See PubMed and Google Scholar for abstracts and occasionally full text studies.

Comparing the best of one diet to the worst of another is disingenuous. Most in dietetics/ nutrition/ medicine would agree that a *balanced, varied, well supplemented, wholefood* vegan diet is healthier than an *imbalanced, restrictive, processed* standard Western diet.

> Comparing the best of one diet to the worst of another is disingenuous.

Yes – that is all very well, but do you know of any other diet that will _reduce_ blood pressure so dramatically and if Dr Greger is to be believed, reduce atherosclerosis effectively to zero?

I am curious about whether having any meat at all in the diet a good thing or a negligibly small bad thing.

Define meat!

Do you mean just land animal muscle meat (processed and unprocessed, intensively farmed and free range), or do you mean land animal muscle meat, organ meats, oily fish and other seafood?

Key factors n normal blood pressure, cholesterol and inflammation (all contribute to atherosclerosis) are weight/ body fat, physical activity levels, balance of fatty acids (inc. omega-6 to omega-3 ratio), intake of sugars and refined/ processed or otherwise high GI carbs.

The amount of oily fish, nuts and some seeds, intensively farmed meat and dairy are highly relevant in the ratio of inflammatory omega-6s to anti inflammatory omega-3s. For health vegans absolutely need to supplement long chain omega-3s (DHA and EPA). It is prohibitively expensive to take a decent dose of marine algae ectract, and the balance of DHA and EPA will still be off.

Most registered dieticians, nutritionists and doctors agree that the ‘gold standard’ in reducing lifestyle diseases and their risk factors is the Mediterranean Diet. This includes plenty of oily fish and other seafood, small amounts of land animal muscle meats (mostly outdoor bred or wild), whole eggs, traditional aged cheeses (much from sheep and goats), plenty of brightly coloured vegetables and fruit, beans and lentils, nuts and seeds, olives and their oil, some red wine.

In my opinion a pescatarian Mediterranean diet is the healthiest of all, land animal muscle meat is not required for health. I also try to incorporate aspects of traditional South Asian and Nordic diets.

The arguments about the underlying theories seems to go on forever. The more interesting question is what does the experimental evidence actually say?

For example in this video by Michael Greger MD
https://nutritionfacts.org/video/the-mediterranean-diet-or-a-whole-food-plant-based-diet/

He sites this paper about using a “plant-based” diet to reverse Coronary Artery Disease (CAD):
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25198208

Participants eliminated “dairy, fish, and meat, and added oil”. It was only a small-ish study (198 patients all of whom already had CAD), but of those who adhered to this plant-based diet, only 1 patient has a stroke (0.6%), whereas 13 of the 21 patients (i.e. 62%) experienced “adverse events” related to CAD.

Could it be that eating animal products at all is much worse for us than the current nutritional theories would seem to predict?

J

Take a look at the Blue Zones (Dan Buettner). I agree with Firefox. It does seem , tho, that vegetarians outlive omnivores but I suspect that’s because those who do eat meat in the western world eat very poor quality meat. So my suggestion is to eat a small, high quality steak (when you can afford it) rather than a large, poor-quality steak. And so forth

Nicely written
here’s a guide for everyone on how to eat a balanced diet